Clayton Utz is an independent law firm founded in 1833. Shearman and Hogan Lovells Call Off Merger Talks, ChatGPT Already Outperforms a lot of Junior Lawyers: An Interview With Richard Susskind, Cravath Set for English Law Debut with Shearman Double Partner Hire, Why 'Designated Counsel' is the Most Problematic Issue in Corporate Law. They also have a dedicated team that provides expert advice in relation to occupational health and safety matters. HSFs revenues reached $965.7m, gaining 4% from last years $277.2m, as posted on the firms website HSF also earned $306.7m in profit, up 11% from previous financial years $277.2m. The top 10% of earners at Herbert Smith Freehills AU make over AU$250K per year. The Firm Our client is a top-tier national law firm. Top Tier Competitive Salary. A Mahlab report estimates that most junior lawyers at major and mid-tier firms in NSW will get an increase of around 10-15 per cent. Ashurst Hilary Goodier LinkedIn: Law firms say ChatGPT an 'opportunity, not a threat' These firms are reportedly the largest by revenue, as they raked in $2.8 billion combined. But she said the "overriding reason" pushing partners to move was a "dissatisfaction or disillusionment with a firm they have helped to build that is now not delivering what they need". These include mining, oil & gas, power and utilities, real estate and technology, media & telecommunications, among others. The industry-leading media platform offering competitive intelligence to prepare for today and anticipate opportunities for future success. Additionally, the firm has given $11.4m in pro bono support in 2019. The catch here is that King & Wood Mallesons has more than 3,000 partners, which makes their revenue-per-partner average much higher than other companies that have fewer partners. Ms Sampson said they face "longer queues" for partnership than they ever have, as well as facing challenges in finding a new home if they are unhappy because they are considered "less malleable" than their more junior equivalents. top tier law firm $135,000 jobs Sort by: relevance - date 209 jobs Corporate Lawyer | Top Tier National Law Firm | Not For Profit Clients Gorilla Jobs 5.0 Remote in Sydney NSW 2000 $100,000 - $170,000 a year Full-time 3 years + PQE within the corporate law space with experience in M&A and tax. MinterEllison Khaitan & CO 4. According to the latest report on the profession by legal recruiter Mahlab, hiring activity was up across Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane, where the most common salary for big firm partners was $1.25 million, $1.15 million and $970,000 respectively. Yes, newly qualified lawyers in New York or London who are on the much revered "Cravath pay scale" will make on their first year as much money as a Special Counsel with 10 years + of experience at a top tier firm in Sydney. Some positions earn more than $250,000 per yearin addition to generous benefits packagesin almost every area of legal practice. Mahlabs managing director in Victoria, Katherine Sampson, said there was a jack in the box effect in play. King & Wood Mallesons Other benefits are on the rise, including company-provided phones and laptops, extra leave and subsidised gym memberships.. Clayton Utz is the Australian member firm of Linklaters, an international law firm with over 2,500 lawyers in more than 30 countries. In Melbourne, new starters can expect anywhere between $65,000$80,000 if employed by a mid-tier,whereas inSydney they can expect between $70,000$85,000. The greatest increase in salary in 2019 has been at SA 1 level, from $150, 000 to $158, 000 and at SA 2 level, from $168, 500 to $176,000. Its been positioned at the top position for the last 7 years. Get breaking news. Toggle navigation. Heres Why, Law.com Editors and Analysts Offer Top Trends to Watch for 2023. If youre looking to break into a lucrative career that is rewarding, fulfilling and well-paying, the best way to get started would be to find an internship and get a foot in the door. Clayton Utz grew its revenue to $517.2m in fiscal year 2019 from $507.8m the prior year. We hope that the information and general advice provided will help you make a more informed decision. The firm predicts 2020 will be a "great year" for solicitors to seek a new role and achieve further growth in their salary brackets. The Lawyer's top 200 UK law firms revealed - The Lawyer | Legal insight, benchmarking data and jobs The 2019 financial rankings of the UK's top 200 law firms are revealed in the latest The Lawyer UK 200 report. At Baker & McKenzie, youll be offered a comprehensive training program designed to prepare you for a career with one of Australias most prestigious firms. However, many factors should be considered before deciding which type of law firm to join. Clients praise its superior communication skills and excellent track record. Of Offices: Terms of Service. Herbert Smith Freehills is an Australian full-service law firm that was established in Sydney, New South Wales, in 1875. Ashurst Australia is the Australian partnership of the global law firm. They are closely followed by Building and Construction. Good luck getting into the top tier NY law firms with an Australian degree. "They start off saying 'I'm not getting enough pay or recognition', but when I really dig down, the cultural concerns will always hands-down beat remuneration concerns," said Mahlab managing director of Melbourne Katherine Sampson. If you are looking to work at a law firm in Australia, there are lots of things you should do. Lawyers include solicitors, barristers, Magistrates and Judges in Australia. Corrs Chambers Westgarth is a leading Australian commercial law firm. 2019 and the first few months of 2020 read very differently to the months that followed. Chinese firm King & Wood PRC Lawyers and Australian firm Mallesons Stephen Jaques combined on 1 March 2012 to create KWM. We are working closely with a top-tier Australian Firm, looking for a . According to Beacon Legal's Private Practice Salary and Market Report 2020, lawyers experienced "record-level" salaries, particularly in the areas of litigation, public M&A's, construction and banking. Copyright 2023 ALM Global, LLC. An Equal Opportunity Employment. Two years later, the salary is the same (at $280,000) and . Four big Australian law firms are Minter Ellison, Clayton Utz, Ashurst and King & Wood Mallesons. It also has an international practice and regularly acts for multinational companies such as Apple and Facebook. The firm has been involved in some of Australias largest and most complex transactions, representing clients such as ANZ, National Australia Bank, Westpac, BHP Billiton, Rio Tinto, Telstra, Goodman Group, and many more. "When you drill down, they just don't like the way the firm is being run.". The firm was founded in 1973 and has offices in Sydney, Melbourne, Perth and Brisbane. The right candidate would have at least 3 years of experience, not a must to have prior experience in in-house. [2] See also [ edit] List of largest law firms by revenue J Sagar Associates 5. Having faced many challenges since the COVID-19 pandemic commenced, the Australian law firm industry demonstrated its resilience and adaptability, resulting in a better than expected industry performance over the 2020-21 financial year. You should always seek qualified independent advice before engaging any services or following any general advice as it is not tailored to your circumstances. Some law firms are abandoning the traditional ranges based on post-qualification experience to compete for new staff in areas of demand such as M&A, private equity and finance, Ms Sampson said. They are seeking an experienced Solicitor with a minimum of 5 years' PQE and the ability to run their own caseload whilst also dealing with business development. So They Can, Momentum Media team up to promote education and empowerme Top 25 Attraction Firms unveiled for 202223. Clayton Utz is a full service commercial law firm with a focus on providing multi-disciplinary advice to domestic and international clients across all industry sectors. What is the expected salary offered by law firms in India? National law firm MinterEllison is cutting ties with the Adelaide Fest 1 in 4 lawyers plan to leave their firms (and soon). In 2018 it acquired the Sydney office of Clayton Utz, which had been struggling financially under the weight of its high cost base compared to its rivals. It also has offices in Beijing, Brussels, Dubai, Hong Kong, London, Macau and New York City. However, most partners can expect to earn anywhere from AUD 250-350k. The report states that for associates, there is a world of opportunity because demand for Australian lawyers has never been higher, locally, internationally and in-house. You're out of free articles for this month. Firms are finding it hard to recruit and retain talent at that level; a typical point at which paths might diverge. Can Australian Lawyers Practice in the Us? In the year 2001, Mallesons Stephen Jaques merged with the UK-based firm, King & Wood. Meanwhile senior associates at the top of. The report says corporate employers have a burgeoning focus on employee satisfaction through mentoring and professional development, perhaps to offset the modest wage growth. Although corporate counsel saw a slightly lower average increase in salary for the financial year, of 2.7 per cent compared to 3.4 per cent the prior year, the prospect of working in an innovative team increasingly valued by corporates was increasingly attractive for lawyers at all levels, the Mahlab reports reveal. Hopefully these tips have been able to answer most of your questions. KWM offers broad experience and deep insight on the following sectors: agribusiness and food; automotive; consumer and retail; financial institutions; government and public; healthcare and pharmaceuticals; industrials; private equity; projects; energy and resources; real estate and construction; and telecommunications, media, entertainment & technology, according to their LinkedIn page. Allens is a leading international law firm, and is one of the largest law firms in the Asia Pacific Region. Luthra & Luthra Law Offices How many law firms are there in India? Mahlab Recruitment, Naiman Clarke Legal, Hughes-Castell, and Dolman conduct and publish annual career and salary surveys for the legal profession. Breach of duty by HWL Ebsworth sees alleged client loss of $130m. It is a candidate-driven market and law firms are finding it difficult to recruit high-calibre lawyers. About Us| National law firm MinterEllison is cutting ties with the Adelaide Fest 1 in 4 lawyers plan to leave their firms (and soon). Conversations with lawyers shifted from vacancy focused to career focused. The figures are based upon the income amounts that have been reported to the ATO, and it takes into account both entire company revenue and revenue from their legal practice division (or LPO as its known). Ironbridge Legal (formerly Blackwattle Legal) is a premium, boutique commercial litigation, insolvency and bankruptcy law firm based in Sydney, Australia. A hot jobs market is fuelling double-digit pay rises for commercial lawyers, with retention bonuses also back in vogue as employers seek to ward off competitors. A new salary guide has highlighted a considerable difference between the lawyers starting off their careers in a top-tier firm versus those at a boutique. MinterEllison said it earned $627m of revenue globally in 2019, an 11% increase on FY2018. And they need people to do the work. Brisbane, Adelaide and Perth also have a significant presence. So They Can, Momentum Media team up to promote education and empowerme Top 25 Attraction Firms unveiled for 202223. "If you've got a firm that is doing things well, and you can convince them it will be more flexible and innovative, they can run their own race, that's very persuasive," said Ms Sampson. However, if youre looking for a good salary as a lawyer in Australia, you should consider applying to work for KWM. You need to be a member to post comments. Lawyers' salaries vary substantially between large and small firms and between country and city firms. With Such Low Win Rates, Should Law Firms Respond to So Many RFPs? First-year lawyers at top-tier and international firms in Sydneywhere pay is highestcan expect to earn A$100,000 to A$115,000 ($64,000 to $74,000). The salaries are a long way below salaries . The supply and demand imbalance, or the war for talent as it if often called, is heavily tipped in favour of associates and senior associates presently and this imbalance is likely to continue beyond the findings contained in our salary report. Shares Capital, Fundraising and Insolvency, 10 Best No Win No Fee Lawyers in Adelaide, 10 Best No Win No Fee Lawyers in Brisbane, 10 Best No Win No Fee Lawyers in Canberra, 10 Best Compensation Lawyers in Melbourne, 10 Best No Win No Fee Lawyers in Melbourne, The Big 6 Australian Law Firms Ranked By Revenue, How to Become a Legal Guardian of a Child in Australia, What Are Australian Laws and Regulations for Assigning Copyright. Get breaking news. National law firm Hall & Wilcox has nabbed a partner, three lawyer MinterEllison pulls support for Adelaide Festival. My client is a top-tier international law firm who is looking for an experienced paralegal to join. salary: 16000 - 17000 per monthrole:our client, a dubai based law firm, is seeking a business development events executive to join the bd and marketing team.the bd events executive will be . 2019 and the first few months of 2020 read very differently to the months that followed. The information contained in our salary survey relates to the base salaries of thousands of lawyers across Australia and the data is collected from offers we have secured for candidates. Most Herbert Smith Freehills AU lawyers are based in Sydney, Melbourne or Perth. The firm has more than 900 lawyers, with offices in Sydney, Brisbane, Melbourne, Perth, Adelaide and Canberra. According to the 2018 National Profile of Solicitors published by the Law Society of NSW, there were 18,748 private law firms operating across Australia. This law firm is pretty impressive with its average revenue per partner at $1.46 million per year. Firm Our client is a top-tier Australian law firm. This fact is further amplified when analysed on a global scale where the firm ranked eightieth. Sign up to our Newsletter. Associate salaries rose as much as 20% in the past 12 months, recruitment firm Taylor Root says. Lawyer.com.au provides opinions, factual information, general advice and pathways to Australian services & products. Their lawyers advise on complex issues involving corporate governance and compliance, intellectual property, mergers and acquisitions, commercial contracts, banking and finance, tax and competition law. Logistics. Clients are busy, so law firms are busy. King & Wood Mallesons (KWM) is a full-service law firm founded in Sydney in 1882. Leverage innovation and optimise your legal spend in 2021, The gifts in a crisis: Lead with resilience & perspective, Australian Lawyers salaries at Top-Tier, Mid-Tier and Boutique firms. Profit per equity partner for 2019 is 972,000 (approximately $1.9m), which increased by 31% from the prior years 743,000 (approximately $1.45m). [1] Firms marked with " (verein)" are structured as a Swiss association . This is perfect for attorneys licensed in multiple jurisdictions or for attorneys that have fulfilled their CLE requirement but need to access resourceful information for their practice areas. User #544398 320 posts. Our client has one of the largest dedicated Environment and Planning law practices in Australia. At a mid-tier partner level, Melbourne-basedprofessionals can expect above $275,000 whileSydney-basedprofessionals can expect a salary above $300,000. Ashurts lead partner Olivia Lau said that the team is very proud to be involved in a transformational project. In Sydney top-tiers, those in their first year practising earn between $75,000$90,000. Your article was successfully shared with the contacts you provided. Herbert Smith Freehills is a multinational law firm headquartered in Sydney, Australia. Around the world, it has offices in 16 countries across Asia, Australia, Europe, North America and the Middle East. Our Hong Kong operations has been supporting. What this means for salaries beyond mid-year reviews is unclear but what is clear, is that a diminishing pool of available lawyers will put pressure on law firms remuneration strategies until visa restrictions are eased. Gatehouse Legal Recruitment has just released its 20182019 Private Practice/Australia Salary Guide, utilising a compilation of salary and market information to determine the pay packets of lawyers at different levels of experience and place of work, including superannuation but not other bonuses or benefits. The biggest law firms in Australia are Norton Rose Fulbright, Gilbert + Tobin, Corrs Chambers Westgarth, Minter Ellison, Ashurst, Herbert Smith Freehills, Allens, Clayton Utz and King & Wood Mallesons. Despite coming in third on this list, Allens stands out when compared to the first two as this firm operates solely on the Australian Legal Market. You will be the key point of contact to the partners/ management team to discuss on pricing and pitches, WIP and debtor status, billing and collection performance etc. Job Description & How to Apply Below Position: Share Schemes Lawyer - Top Tier Firm - Great Benefits Location: Rusholme Fantastic opportunity to work form the global Top 20 powerhouse that houses an impressive share schemes and incentives practice. While the financial details were not officially disclosed yet, the deal was earlier reported to have cost $700m. Over the past five years, our client's revenue has grown by over 75 per cent and its partnership size has increased by 20 per cent. The lowest 10% of earners make under AU$50K per year. According to Payscale, based on 432 salary profiles as at March 2022, the average base salary of lawyers ranges from as low as $52,000, with a median of $69,264, and up to $121,000. Also the starting salaries will barely cover the cost of living. With offices in Sydney, Melbourne, Perth, and Brisbane, HSF Australia is comfortably one of the Big 8 Law firms in Australia. King & Wood Mallesons (KWM) is an international law firm with a main office in Hong Hong Kong. The firm's Civil Fraud practice in London is ranked amongst the best and is top tier rated in legal . Government law is one of the fields that fairly easy to gain mastery over. Now, there are no surprises here, as all the firms on this list are part of the larger group popularly known as the Big 8. In the corporate setting, modest annual increases continue at CPI or a little above. These firms are reportedly the largest by revenue, as they raked in $2.8 billion combined. You need to be a member to post comments. My client is a successful full service law firm that has a reliable client base across the North of England and are looking to add to their successful private client department. For over 20 years, Taylor Root has produced our annual salary guide in July, and despite COVID-19 we wanted to continue the tradition. We're currently recruiting for an opportunity for our client, a top tier Australian Law Firm. Ashurst said its revenue as of 30 April 2019 was 641m (approximately $1.25bn), a 14% increase from the previous years 564m (approximately $1.1bn). Stunning Melbourne CBD location and offices The Firm This long standing top-tier national law firm offers quality legal services locally and across Europe, America and Asia. A top-tier law firm is seeking a Finance Advisor to join their team. And the level of commercial activity hasnt dropped off. Breach of duty by HWL Ebsworth sees alleged client loss of $130m. To help give you an idea of the highest paying law firms in Australia, weve compiled a list of the top 10 highest paying law firms in AU. If we talk about 2nd and 3rd position then Minter Ellison and Baker & McKenzie tied on 3rd rank with a salary of $135,000 and $130,000 respectively. Hybrid Work Flexibility. Copyright 2023 KM Business Information Australia Pty Ltd, Workplace relations and health and safety, Slater and Gordon accepts Allegro takeover offer, announces half-year results, Federal Court to tackle ASIC's first greenwashing court action, G+T helps NSW Ports to win in ACCC appeal over $5.2bn port privatisation, PrimeCredits first term securitisation issuance, HSF advises NSW government on new campus project for the University of Newcastle, Centre for Legal Innovation launches generative AI in legal practice initiative, Former assistant US attorney joins King & Spalding in New York, Vic Bar, Law Institute of Victoria raise concerns over proposed bill using lawyers as informants, Goodwin welcomes Matthew Nortcliff to the private investment funds practice, Latham & Watkins adds funds-focused tax partner in New York, Graeme Johnson Chief financial officer and chief operating officer. In recent years, Minter Ellison has made a number of strategic acquisitions to expand its capabilities beyond traditional litigation work. (More) See all Careers and Jobs at Randstad Hong Kong Limited . Alan Peckham Chief administrative officer, Melbourne; Chele Dore Chief business development officer, Sydney; John McKenna Chief risk officer, Melbourne. Ashurst Both options are priced the same. The firm has offices in Asia, Europe and the United States. Market-leading rankings and editorial commentary - see the top law firms & lawyers for International tax in United States The Legal 500 > United States > United States > Tax > International tax In alphabetical order, the largest Australian firms are: Allens More importantly how are you going to get a job with one of those companies? In Victoria it will be around 10 per cent. Those at mid-sized. Although we cover a large range of the providers available, we don't cover every option available. Gain access to some of the most knowledgeable and experienced attorneys with our 2 bundle options! LEAP, Lawyers Weekly enter into diversity partnership. The term Big Six law firms referred, prior to 2012, to the six largest - by lawyer head count - Australian law firms. Rare entry level position into a top tier law firm, offering mentoring from some of the best in the field along with an ongoing career pathway in areas such as eDiscovery and Litigation . Explore Noble Legal Limited careers and open vacancies on Adzuna. 2020 - 2021 A leading source of insight for Australian lawyers. Commercial law firms work with companies to advise them on their business operations and advise businesses on how they can enter into agreements and contracts. Each attorney is granted unlimited access to high quality, on-demand premium content from well-respected faculty in the legal industry along with administrative access to easily manage CLE for the entire team. LEAP, Lawyers Weekly enter into diversity partnership. Blake Dawson was founded in Melbourne in 1841 by James Hunter Ross. Latest News: KWM acted as the lead deal and documentation counsel on PrimeCredits first term securitisation issuance. Passwords must have at least 10 characters, one number, one lower and one upper case letter, and one special character. The firm has an annual revenue of $1 billion and has been ranked by The Australian Financial Review as one of the top 100 most innovative companies in Australia. For the year 2017-2018, Herbert Smith Freehills led the pack in Australia, with gross revenue totalling $1,194,645,000. Law firms all over the country are looking to hire the best lawyers to represent their clients, and as such, competition is fierce when it comes to attracting new talent. Allens is a top Australian law firm, ranked by revenue in the latest Australian Financial Review 200 list of the countrys biggest companies. Due to growth of the team, our client is interested in seeing candidates who have obtained a broad range of Funds experience to date and is open to those returning from overseas or those with in-house experience. Since the 2012 changes, and due to the expansion of other competing law firms, the Australian legal landscape is increasingly . Law firms will pay top dollar for specialist lawyers in hard-to-fill positions such as construction, mergers and acquisitions and private equity. Which law firms pay the highest in Australia? Law firms & in-house legal departments with a presence in the middle east celebrate outstanding achievement within the profession. Clayton Utz specialises in law, banking & finance, workplace, tax, insurance & risk, competition, commercial litigation, construction & major projects, intellectual property, corporate/m&a, tmt, energy & resources, restructuring and insolvency, environment and planning, real estate, and forensic services, per the firms LinkedIn profile. Law firms are also battling a relatively new threat as they barricade against raids: the attraction of going in-house. Hope Valley top law firms Hornsby top law firms Hurstville top law firms Ipswich top law firms Joondalup top law firms Kangaroo Point top law firms Kew top law firms Kingston top law firms Launceston top law firms Leichhardt top law firms AZB & Partners 3. The top 10% of earners at Herbert Smith Freehills AU make over AU$250K per year. A Tier 1 law firm will almost always pay the highest salaries to new associates and lateral hires. Recruiter Hydrogen Group. It is, however, interesting to note that the firms average revenue per lawyer was higher than the first two firms, with a figure of $884,000 per lawyer. Herbert Smith Freehills provides corporate legal services to large corporations, financial institutions and governments worldwide, with a particular focus on Asia-Pacific markets. hatake88. Hays, Hudson [as mentioned], Mahlab), as well as keep an eye out for AFR profit/revenue surveys. The revenue gap further widens with Minter Ellison recording gross revue of $338,600,000. MinterEllison specialises in the following practice areas: competition and market regulation; construction; corporate; employment; environment and planning; equity capital markets; finance; funds management; insurance; intellectual property; litigation and disputes; mergers and acquisitions; private equity; real estate; reconstruction; tax and technology, as declared on their LinkedIn page. It hasnt been like that for 15 years and there are two reasons. Support at Partner level. It had also not helped that firms had been unable to recruit talent from offshore jurisdictions such as the UK, South Africa and Hong Kong. Can Australian Lawyers Practice in the Us? Their team of lawyers is committed to providing high quality legal services that are focused on achieving results for our clients. Our second option allows you to build your bundle and strategically select the content that pertains to your needs. No. Paralegal - Commercial Government - Top-tier National Law Firm Australia Kaleidoscope Legal Recruitment Other jobs like this full time Published on www.neuvoo.com 02 Mar 2023 Commonwealth Government department Client-facing role Work closely with the Partner The firm, which was founded in 1827 in Sydney, has since expanded into more non-traditional consulting services like infrastructure consulting, risk & regulatory, tax and technology. Ashurst has 6 offices in Australia two in Brisbane, and one each in Canberra, Melbourne, Perth and Sydney. RecruitME are a specialized recruitment consultancy supplying top tier business support staff to Dubais leading multinational organizations. Join International Edition now! Closes 29 Mar 2023 Ref JN -022021-456736 . In addition, they have 28 locations across the Asia Pacific, Europe, Middle East and North America. Singapore, Hong Kong, Dubai, Cayman and the BVI are increasingly looking for Australian lawyers to join them. A top-tier private client firm recognized by The Times Best Law Firms, private client, Chambers HNW, and The Legal 500 is looking to hire a Senior Private Client lawyer with experience in Tax and Probate, to join their London office. Areas covered in this year's report include: Overview of the Australian Legal Market Australian Lawyers' salaries at Top-Tier, Mid-Tier and Boutique firms Partners' & Directors remuneration International Market ILawyers Salaries In-house Legal Market Overview and Lawyers' salaries You need to be a member to post comments. Lawyer.com.au provides opinions, factual information, general advice and pathways to Australian services & products. Tier 1 law firms will generally have the highest billing rates and the highest profits per partner. Clayton Utz The profile also revealed that as of October 2018, there were 76,303 practising solicitors in Australia. How much do lawyers earn or how much do lawyers make in Australia? At partner levelin a top-tier firm in Melbourne, employees earn above $300,000 while those in Sydney earn above $320,000. So They Can, Momentum Media team up to promote education and empowerme Top 25 Attraction Firms unveiled for 202223. This position is to join a highly successful Property Team. WORKERS COMPENSATION ATTORNEY - Hartford, CT, Offering an Opportunity of a Lifetime for Personal Injury Lawyers, What Does Your Business Agreement Really Mean? Hong Kong, China, Australia and New Zealand. What are the 4 big law firms? The legal industry in Australia is thriving, with lawyers demanding more and more money as they specialize their skills and become experts in specific areas of law. This corresponds with the skill shortage observed across the broader professional services sector and the accelerated wage growth forecasted and witnessed. The firm advises on corporate and securities law, banking and finance law, capital markets transactions, funds management services, and investment services, energy projects development work (including clean energy), infrastructure projects (including water infrastructure) as well as acquisition finance work. For many lawyers it was the first such advisory discussion they had ever had.
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